Malinda Lo
Blog
Sep 8, 2011
Do girls who kick ass outweigh fake lesbianism and whoring? 5 thoughts on “Game of Thrones”
Last month we got HBO, which meant I could finally watch Game of Thrones, a show that I’ve been dying to see ever since I saw the first promos for it. The first season wrapped up back in June in the U.S., so I’m a few months behind, but I loved watching the episodes in big batches all at once. I haven’t read the novels, though I admit I did go and read the Wikipedia entries on several of the characters so that I’d know what happens to them later on in the book series. That said, my commentary here is based solely on the HBO television series; I don’t know how the series differs from the books, and I’m not commenting on the books themselves.
Here are my thoughts (many many spoilers for the TV series!):
1. Whores
From the first episode, whores and whoring and brothels were tossed around so easily and thoughtlessly that yes, I was pretty uncomfortable about it. For one thing, I was uncomfortable with the vast amount of female nudity because even though men are sometimes naked or nearly naked on the series, the majority of nudity is female nudity presented as something to bought and paid for.1 The women who are most often depicted naked are whores or teenage girls being married off for a man’s profit (specifically, Daenerys). The few times a man is shown naked (I think I counted twice, and both times I cringed), he is depicted in the act of sex with a woman, and he is depicted as physically dominant.
This, combined with the fact that the people of Westeros constantly denigrate women2, did not make me happy. I was on the verge of dismissing Game of Thrones as another sexist throwback to traditional male-dominated fantasy when the last couple of episodes changed my mind. Specifically, one scene between Tyrion Lannister (Peter Dinklage) and his paid companion, Shae (Sibel Kekilli), did a lot to show me that the producers of Game of Thrones are aware of this issue.
Sibel Kekilli as Shae
In that scene, Tyrion explains how his first sexual experience was with a woman he rescued from being raped. He says he learned later that he was set up by his brother, and the woman was actually a hired prostitute. But Shae tells him pertly that he was naive to think that any woman would want to fall into bed with a man right after she was raped. I loved that moment. It finally showed that prostitutes are not always only victims, but can also be manipulating the men who hire them.
2. Fake Lesbianism
There was one more scene with prostitutes, this time Ros (Esme Bianco) and another woman, that I think was also included to demonstrate that whores are putting on a show for gullible men. However, the fact that the scene involved brothel owner Petyr Baelish (Aidan Gillen) explaining to Ros and the other whore how to have fake lesbian sex was an eye-rolling misstep.
Esme Bianco as Ros (right) with another prostitute
Basically: This has been done before, folks. I’m really tired of fake lesbianism. I’m tired of it even when whores are practicing it for their boss, who clearly knows they’re being fake and is telling them how to fake out their clients. I didn’t like it when Daenerys’s handmaiden “practiced” sexual techniques on Daenerys to teach her how to please her husband, either. That is such a tired trick, and all it does is prove to me that the show is still clearly written with an eye toward titillating the straight male viewer.3
There are gay male relationships in the series, between Renly Baratheon (King Robert’s younger brother) and Loras Tyrell. It’s a secret, but it’s a relationship between two people, neither of whom is paid to perform. Limiting lesbian relationships to false, paid ones is a cheap way to include sexy thrills without giving female characters full ownership of their sexuality. If gay men exist in the world of Game of Thrones, gay women exist, too. I for one would like to see it.
3. Girls Who Kick Ass
Undoubtedly, my favorite characters on the show are Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) and Arya Stark (Maisie Williams). Both are teen girls at the start of the series, and I think that’s symbolic of the fact that the world of Game of Thrones is on the verge of change, and those who will make that change happen are young.
Emilia Clarke as Daenerys Targaryen
I do think some aspects of Daenerys’s story line were handled poorly. I don’t think it’s realistic for a girl who is raped by her husband to suddenly decide that she must seduce him and love him (after that fake lesbian scene with her maid, of course). It’s my understanding that the portrayal of her husband, Khal Drogo (Jason Momoa), is somewhat different in the book, and perhaps he is gentler and does not actually rape her on their wedding night? However, in the TV series, she is weeping — weeping — the first time they have sex, and that is the image that stayed with me even when she started calling him “my sun and stars.” I just did not find their relationship to be realistic.
However, I’ll get over it because of those dragon eggs Daenerys helped to hatch, and the fact that now she is powerful (albeit still often naked). Hopefully she won’t be raped ever again in the series.
Maisie Williams as Arya Stark
As for Arya, I just love her. I want more of her in all episodes! Her forthrightness and disdain for taking on the traditional female role her parents see for her are all marks in her favor. I hope she survives and joins up with Daenerys and kicks a lot of ass. (Obviously, as you can tell, I haven’t read the books!)
4. People of Color
One thing I think Game of Thrones really dropped the ball on is the representation of people of color. Khal Drogo and his Dothraki nomads are so, so stereotypically barbaric. It is so disappointing. Ugh. The fact that Drogo was mostly naked the whole time didn’t help, because his nakedness was clearly meant to illustrate how barbarian he was. Tattoos! Eyeliner! Grunting language! I’m just going to avert my eyes from this aspect of the series because I don’t have the energy to deal with it, and I hope the producers improve in the future.
5. Why watch a series with so many problems?
This is the question, isn’t it.4 I really enjoyed the first season despite these issues, and partly I enjoyed the series because it invited me (strongly!) to think about these issues. I am hopeful that the producers are aware of these critiques (I know that many critics/bloggers have voiced them across the internet), though I’m not sure that they’ll change what they do in subsequent seasons. Television thrives on titillation, especially on pay cable channels like HBO, where sex, nudity and violence have a fine, long tradition of winning Emmys and getting buzz.5
I think I also watched because, frankly, there wasn’t a lot of good TV on in the summer. And the storytelling in Game of Thrones is pretty darn gripping — more gripping than most television I’ve watched in recent memory. As I noted, I do find kernels of hope for future seasons — in that scene with Shae, and in Daenerys and Arya. (I don’t know if there’s much hope for the Dothraki.) And I do like several other characters very much: Jon Snow (hero!), Tyrion Lannister (antihero!), even Cersei (played by the inimitable Lena Headey), who despite her incestuous creepiness is one powerful and driven lady.
So, I guess I’m on board for season 2. The show has its share of problems, but I want to see what happens when winter finally freaking comes. (It better come in season 2!)
Source: www.gameoflols.com
Edited 9/9/11 to add: Some of the comments below deal with rape, and specifically what constitutes rape. I know that I inadvertently invited this by discussing rape in this post and questioning whether the book’s depictions of sex are the same as the ones in the TV show. (What can I say but I’ve never blogged about this subject before and I should have known better. I will in the future.) While I think this subject is relevant in critiquing the TV series, it is a subject that is fraught with many, many tensions, and I do not want this post to devolve into a discussion of what constitutes rape. If you’d like to critique what is represented in the TV show, please go ahead, but I will no longer permit an expansion of that discussion into (1) what happens in the books; (2) rape in real life. I realize this is a fine line to draw, but I think it’s a necessary one to maintain. If you don’t get what I mean, please just err on the side of caution. Many women have experienced sexual abuse and I don’t want them to feel attacked or forced to defend themselves in this discussion, which I’ve found very interesting, and I don’t want to shut it down. Thank you for your comments!
Edited 9/12/11 to add: I’ve closed comments as I’ll be offline all day and people seem to be misunderstanding me repeatedly. I’ll blog about the misunderstanding later.
- I am not uncomfortable with female nudity as a general state of being, just as a sales tactic. [↩]
- I don’t think I’ve ever heard the word “whore” used so often [↩]
- That New York Times review from last spring, stating that the sex was clearly included to entice female viewers? Bullshit. None of the sex was sexy — it was all rape and prostitution and incest. What woman is going to yearn to watch that?! [↩]
- And if you want a more in-depth and nuanced discussion of this problem, read Alyssa Rosenberg’s post at Think Progress: “Feminist Media Criticism, George R. R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire, and That Sady Doyle Piece.” [↩]
- See True Blood, Rome, Spartacus, The Tudors, etc. We appear to be in a golden age of pay cable historical/fantasy epics. [↩]
I very much agree that I’m tired of fake lesbianism. I tend to stop watching/reading whatever has that in it. The other thing Im tired of? Lack of lesbian relationships in general on TV. I can think of several male gay couples, but where are the females? I’m sorry, we don’t exist just to please the straight male.
Thanks so much for this. I had the same issues, but I just couldn’t bring myself to keep watching. I was so looking forward to this, despite having not read the books – a great fantasy series is not a thing at which to sneeze! I haven’t paid attention to the online discussion of the series, so I was particularly glad to see you draw attention to the very things I found so frustrating. I’m not a prude by any means, but I get annoyed by cable networks that push things as far as they can, just -because- they can – not because it serves the characters or the story. So much potential here – it’s definitely gorgeous to look at (Lena Headey alone …) – but I couldn’t stick with it.
Pretty sure there’s more male nudity, and the scene I’m thinking of the guy certainly isn’t physically dominant. After the attempted wine-poisoning, the guy is forced to run alongside the horses stripped and beaten.
The Khal Drogo sex scenes were just as bad (if not worse) in the books. Lots and lots of talk about the texture and taste of semen. I certainly still read it as rape.
I’ll never defend George Martin from accusations of a wandering plot, an obsessive reverence for his own world-building, a lack of focus and for crushing the souls of his readers.
However, I do defend his work against a social critique because it’s always been fairly obvious to me that his novels are aimed squarely at the patriarchy. And, in particular, male-dominated epic fantasy.
He takes every expectation of the genre, including the romanticism of a time when “men were men and women were women” and turns it upside down. For example, the only true and chivalric knight in the series is a woman.
People are all treated very badly; be a butcher’s boy at the wrong place at the wrong time and you’re killed because the prince is in a snit. The whole series seems to be a response to fantasy fan boys who think, “Oh, if only I could live in a time of castles and dragons and princesses who would do as I told them on the first date.”
Martin shows, in rather disturbing detail, just how crappy a chivalric world was for women and, really, anyone not in power. He explores all the different coping mechanisms. Some of the women conform to expectations in an effort to eke out a place for themselves. Others use their sexuality to get ahead. Some of them are outwardly defiant, like Arya. Some of them are schemers. Some of them, like Brienne of Tarth, who you haven’t met yet, will adopt the male paradigm.
They all succeed or fail to varying degrees, but certainly no moreso than the males in the series, considering that our honorable hero is a spectacular numbskull. (I’ve seen it said that Sansa is punished in the series for being too much of a girlie-girl, which is nonsense. From the start of the series, she is a romantic. And like all romantics who buy into the patriarchal status-quo, her delusions must be brutally ripped from her.)
As for the Dothraki, I feel as if this is where HBO really fell down on the job. In the books, we’re originally introduced to the culture as a horrible barbaric people. It’s only as we move forward that you start to see that they’re juxtaposed against the supposedly civilized Westerosi, and the picture emerges of a barbarian culture that is far more honorable and civilized in its way than the evil knights slaughtering on the other side of the narrow sea.
So, in short, there’s lots of reasons not to like the series. But it’s lack of meaningful progressive dialog shouldn’t be one of them.
Hey there.
I did not watch the series. But most of this is just wrong – by the book.
That Ros prostitute? Not a book character. neither all that lesbianism.
Daeneris’ maid teaches her how to please her husband – not tests it on themselves, if I remember correctly.
Drogo does NOT rape Dany on their wedding night. It does hurt a bit, she mentions it, but just normal, not forcing, hurting, etc.
Daeneris decides to seduce her husband because he always wants to “mount her as a horse” and she does not think that is good enough, she wants to be dominant and so she decides she must act.
Oh yeah and WTF on Renly and Loras?? Who freaking did it? I may be oblivious but I didn’t notice ANY comments about it on the 2 first books, specially on the first, which is where the tv series comes from… Not even veiled.
Ah, yeah, Daenerys. Keep both eyes on her. After the season finale (did you watch it) and for the following seasons, she’ll be one to look for, along with Arya, they are both my favorites, along with Tyrion, Snow and Bran. Aren’t they everyone’s favorites?
That was my specific wish for Arya and Daenerys as well.
Yes, for me all the good of the TV series outweighs the bad. And particularly on race there’s a lot of bad.
But the good—in addition to what you’ve mentioned (I love you Arya!): the overall production, set design, costumes etc is so fabulous—you can see & feel the dirt & decay. I’m sucked in permanently and have indeed read all of the books.
It interests me that HBO decided to change what is presented as a consensual sexual encounter between Dany and Drogo as rape in the series. At first, I was outraged because I remembered their relationship so fondly. Drogo is gentle with her, and in the end, she says yes. But the more I thought about it, I wondered if HBO’s portrayal was not the more honest one. There’s no getting around the fact that Dany is a young girl given over in marriage to this hard warrior who was not likely to take no for an answer, and if Martin’s trying to show us the crappy world that feminism has done its best to change, then maybe not romanticizing this abusive power deferential was the better choice. What do you think?
Excellent points. The book was definitely “HBOed” for the series, with much more emphasis on sexuality than was present. However, while the scene between Daenerys and Drogo in the book was more tender, and she a more willing partner, book Daenerys was only thirteen. So definitely problematic either way.
I think for many women of my generation, Song of Ice and Fire was likely the fantasy series that introduced them to the genre. I know when I started reading in the genre, I didn’t see a problem with how the women in Song of Ice and Fire, Wheel of Time, etc. were portrayed, mostly because there didn’t seem to be any alternative. On recent reread, the attitudes in Game of Thrones seem outdated and offensive. Nostalgia is what drove me to watch the series, and I’ll probably keep (guiltily) watching next season.
This is interesting that the aspects I found the most problematic don’t appear to be in the books. Blame it on Hollywood? Groan.
I see that you love the book series and I have no problem with the books — indeed I have no opinion on them because I haven’t read them. I think that a television series must stand on its own, no matter the source material, and that’s what I’m critiquing: HBO’s TV series. I don’t know how much input GRRM had into its production. It’s certainly interesting to see where it differs from the source material, though.
Oh yeah, that horrible running behind the horses scene. I must have covered my eyes for that!
Not sure.
You see there are many not-so-well relationships. Where the woman just accepts it for status or money or whatever. Dany and Drogo’s relationship, to me, was same as Ned and Catelyn’s, something that started out arranged but evolved to mutual love and respect, simply because those relationships had to exist aswell – impossble to think that all relationships would be of pain and abuse. And if all girls get married at young ages (14, 15 tops?) then a girl on her 13′s would have to be half-prepared to get married. Not really know what’s coming, but’s something sort-of normal.
They don’t have to show all relationships as abusive… But that’s just my way of seeing it, of course, clearly not HBO’s
Yeah, the production values are amazing. I love the locations and the look — visually it’s just stunning.
I do blame it on Hollywood.
And some changes just seem to be there to make it more polemic – to bring people to complain and be shocked. I’ve learned long ago not to watch series or movies made out of books I’ve read. I just get frustrated.
No, I agree with you. What we know to be abusive now is with the benefit of psychology and a social movement. People are resilient and they adapt to the circumstances in which they were raised. I am sure that love flourished even in circumstances which we recognize now as dysfunctional.
By the same token, maybe HBO’s portrayal wasn’t so much of a whitewashing of that grim reality. At least, I’m not as outraged by that change in the story now as I was when it first flashed on my TV screen!
I agree with you about the books. They are a million miles away from Robert Jordan et al & do, indeed, critique them. Besides being much better written. (Though I do find Cersei less one-note in the show than the books. And I’m not entirely comfortable with some of his narrative choices around whores & rape in the books.)
However, I do think the problematic depiction of the Dothraki is pretty much identical in both books & tv show.
For the record, I don’t always love the book series. I have some serious problems with it in terms of narrative structure. I just love what he’s trying to do and admire his talent.
However, I didn’t mean to seem as if I was glossing over your statement that you were only critiquing the television version. It’s just that I think the show is largely faithful to the original. So I guess my question is, do you think that the HBO series didn’t have the same point or social message? (Or maybe, it doesn’t have that same message yet…perhaps if I didn’t know what was going to happen, I wouldn’t be able to make the same argument?)
(FWIW, I thought the added lesbian scenes were lame and am somewhat bewildered by the new harlots in the TV series!)
Thanks for the great discussion!
Also not a fan of the choices Martin makes about Cersei in the books. It’s his laziest portrayal, IMO.
Riffing on what people have already said:
- Most of the problems you’ve identified (although certainly not all) are inventions of the TV series; specifically, the fake lesbianism, Dany’s wedding-night rape, and the constant use of Sexy Background Whores.
- In the books, there’s actual lesbianism (or at least bisexuality) that isn’t put on for the titillation of men. Interestingly, though, the relationship between Renly and Loras is only ever hinted alluded to by other characters, and never openly stated or shown. Partly this is because neither is a point of view character, but in contrast with the show, it does highlight the fact that, whereas we actually *see* lesbianism and female bisexuality in the books, male homosexuality is only ever hinted at in the background. Which is interesting.
- I liked the Dothraki in the books, primarily because, despite being painted originally as dark savages, their religion, mythology and culture all struck me as being original. Stephanie does a great job of describing how the Dothraki are contrasted with the Westerosi above, and though I agree that the white = western, brown = foreign divide is still deeply problematic in fantasy, Martin at least balances this a little with the inclusion of brown Westerosi (the Dornish) and white foreigners (the Qartheen and, to a lesser extent, the Targaryens/Valyrians themselves).
- One thing that I hadn’t considered until Sady Doyle mentioned it in her piece was the extent to which women who adhere to traditional feminine roles in the books always turn out to be hopeless strategists and terrible leaders, whereas the more masculine ladies (Arya, Brienne, Daenerys, Asha) are always shown much more capably. Her best point in this regard was Cersei, who, having schemed successfully to take the throne, then turns out to be an utterly awful monarch. Not that this is entirely out of keeping with her character or the tactics she’s used up to that point, mind, but it was a striking point nonetheless.
- A final point in favour of Martin’s works is that they actually invite these sorts of discussions, because there’s enough meat to the worldbuilding and characterisation that you can actually debate them. Possibly this is just a Googlefail on my part or the fact that they were never made into TV series, but I’ve never seen the works of Jordan, Feist, Goodkind, Eddings etc generate so many passionate arguments about feminism and race in fantasy, possibly because, even though many of the same tropes Martin is accused of perpetuating occur in their novels, they’re executed with a much lesser sense (if any) of subversion.
I don’t know what the social message of the HBO series is, and I think it’s difficult to say with certainty until the series is concluded. What I see in the TV series is a show that is firmly rooted in traditional escapist male-dominated fantasy, produced to maximize shock value and sexiness in order to gain viewers and more seasons. I think the first season of any TV series is often hamstrung by the need to get high enough ratings to survive for more seasons. (That’s why pilot episodes in particular are weird creatures — they’re made to sell the show to executives, and executives are by and large straight white men.) Most TV series, IMO, don’t really settle into their identities until later seasons, and that’s when the themes really start to come out. I think the HBO series is promising; by the end of the first season it’s clear that the producers are interested in being untraditional in their fantasy. I’m hoping they’ll continue in that vein in later seasons!
Yeah, that’s a fair enough point! The HBO series alone simply may not convey enough to the viewer to get a sense of author intent. I hadn’t considered before that a viewer simply might not realize that there’s anything special going on here until the penultimate episode because it’s all front-loaded with ‘Hey, this is a nasty world.’
Niki- you are incorrect. In the book on Khal Drogo and Dany’s wedding night, he does NOT rape her. She is crying when he tries to ‘mount’ her, keyword: tries, and then sees her crying and stops. It’s a very tender moment actually. He touches her gently and only when she says so. In fact, the talk about the texture and taste of semen doesn’t even come up until much later in the book. Furthermore, the reader doesn’t even ‘witness’ their consummation. The chapters end when she tells him ‘yes’ instead of ‘no’. Because she WANTS to.
I’ll have to disagree about the fake lesbianism being an invention of the TV series. Pretty much all same-sex scenes in the book are with women who are portrayed as bored and missing their men. Also, if i remember it correctly, the scene you liked with Shae is not in the book at all and I don’t know really how they will make Tyrions later story work with that in mind. The first three novels are better than most other fantasy, sure, but to portray Martin as somehow subverting the genre or being a feminist champion is taking it a bit too far. Especially since the latest installment is not only a sprawling and tedious travelogue but also has pretty much every woman except maybe Arya turn indecisive and incompetent.
A note on the treatment of women: just saw this piece in today’s paper about an actress quitting the set when told to do a full-nude scene (she’d previously been told there’d be no nudity). http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/model-quits-thrones-over-nudity-20110908-1jziv.html
Agreed, unfortunately. The lesbian sex scenes in the book are very male-gazey even if there aren’t males present at the time. It’s a big frustration for many fans how Renly and Loras (plus another character introduced in the latest book) are gay, but there are no actual lesbian characters.
Martin is a fabulous writer. I really think almost no one does narrative drive, that page turning compulsion, better than he does. The other thing he does is write soap opera. I don’t mean that as a criticism. What drives the story is the relationship between characters; that’s why people are so invested in the series.
However, I know people talk about the series as a critique of the patriarchal past, etc etc,and that may be, but the female roles in the book fit almost totally into the 1970s. They’re not medieval.
Also, as culture building, I found the Dothraki poorly done.
I note that I’ve not seen the tv series, and have read only the first 3 books.
Oh no. I haven’t read the last one yet. I wasn’t thrilled about Cersei’s portrayal. I hope he’s not going to pull a George Lucas on me and ruin everything I ever believed about the series…
Fake lesbianism has always annoyed me too – in real life even more! (Like when straight girls grind up against me in clubs to “tease the boys” – and since I’m femme have no idea that I’m queer.)
I would probably watch this show for the same reason I watch the Tudors – eye candy and the amazing costumes and the drama ;P
I don’t find the whores problematic. I find the portrayal of those women to be positive. They are strong and in charge of themselves under misogynist circumstances.
Likewise, the fake lesbians. What I got from that particular scene was that we thought it was going to be just another Playboy channel lesbo scene, but in fact, the main character (of the two women) discovered herself to be rather powerful and able to enjoy her body and another woman’s body in a way she had not before–directed by the boss or not. By the end of the “experiment” the boss was sort of beside the point to her (not to mention the other woman).
As for Deneyrus, I’m not her biggest fan, I find her to be the most problematic female character, in fact. On the one hand, yes, she’s powerful, on the other hand she is the most stereotypical female character created for the male gaze of all of them. (Ironic as this may be given the prostitutes.) There’s one of her in every comic book, with her already scanty clothes constantly falling off.
Arya rocks my world. I hope she grows up to be a bull-dagger and rescues girls from brothels to become bandits in the hills.
But something tells me that won’t happen…
I’ve read plenty of books too because there were no alternatives. Thank goodness there are alternatives now!
For the record, some of us female viewers do actually enjoy the incest. Just putting that out there.
Interesting. And a bit disappointing.
Good on her!
There is PLENTY of eye candy!
Honestly, I think you’re romanticizing it. She’s 13, sold into marriage, expected to have sex with him whenever he’s in the mood, and doesn’t get any pleasure from it for a hell of a long time.
From the book:
“He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night.”
Come on. This is rape. Over and over again.
(And the semen description reference wasn’t in relation to the “rape yes/no” question; it was more me finding it hilarious that this male author thinks it’s a given that women fantasize about the golden taste.)
Niki- you are taking that out of it’s intended context. “Cries of pain.” She is small and he is a large man, taking her from behind. This part that you quoted her preceded her asking her maid servant how to get Drogo to let her guide HIM. That is not the wedding night scene.
The fact that he may not rape her on her wedding night doesn’t mean he doesn’t rape her every other night. How is that better? She has no ability to say no, and is certainly never *asked* if she wants him to come in drunk every night and “ride” her.
She asks her maid servant for advice because she’s contemplating killing herself if the situation doesn’t change. It’s right there.
She isn’t “small”. She’s a 13 year old child.
…why are you defending this?
OK folks, I’m sorry to have to say let’s cool it on this Daenerys/Drogo discussion — this post isn’t the place to debate the wording in GRRM’s novels because this post isn’t actually about the novels; it’s about the TV show. Also, I don’t want this to become a debate about what is and is not rape, so please refrain from that. Thank you!
Lovely to see your thoughts! I’ve read and like the books, and watched and like the show, but… yes and eeeesh on the fake lesbians, and the Dothraki (though as others have said, the Dothraki are portrayed like that in the books too).
I was very bothered by the Dany/Drogo wedding night o’rape, because… well, ew! And because I remembered liking the scene in the books, which was pretty complicated as–sold young into marriage, consent is always going to be a thorny issue–but Drogo did show he was capable of sympathy for his bride and did want a yes, and that was a good foundation for their later relationship. However, there were plenty of horrid nights for Dany too, so in the end I understood the choice. I ended up being a fan of Dany and Drogo’s relationship on the show, even. (This was helped along by Jason Momoa, who I think is hot.
And a good actor — people, stop casting him as a barbarian, you are all being gross, he would be charming in a rom com, for God’s sake.) Dany is my favourite on the show too–Emilia Clark is doing a fabulous job. I hope the show lets Dany do some fun queen o’the dragons stuff!
I do have lots of hope for Dany in the show, because Cersei is better there than in the books. We skip around with the POV (fun times with POV, always my favourite thing) and I was stunned in books two and three to become a fan of Jaime ‘It’s Raining Small Children From Towertops’ Lannister. I was super excited to get a Cersei POV later, and, then, well. Ladies and their manly-attribute envy and their hysterical inability to wield power, am I right? But in the show she’s already clearly bright as well as ruthless, and complex. (I mean no disrespect to the books–like I said, I like them! But Cersei was a letdown.) There’s also the fact that the gay relationship was very much elided in the books and so it being actually shown in the show makes me think they’re thinking about this kind of thing, and I have my fingers crossed they will be making smart choices.
I am also super excited for Brienne, another favourite of mine in the books. Crazy tall blond warrior maid with strict code of honour!
In short… I agree with you. Fun, fascinating show. Bucketloads of problems. Hopefully the second season will have more awesome, less sexposition. Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Brienne being amazing, please! *puts in order*
I’ve not read the books, but from this discussion it sounds like HBO is doing what I’ve always felt it did well (except in True Blood, but that’s for another conversation) and that is creating really deep female characters, who look, at first glance like they are going to be yet-another-stereotype but then get realistically complex over the course of the show.
I also find that whatever the role the women are playing, the writing and acting often show them coming from their own perspective, rather than a male fantasy one. How does a prostitute feel about being a prostitute? How does a child bride feel about being a child bride? How does a smarter-than-her-husband queen with no formal power feel about that?
There is a great deal of difference in the way HBO (usually) portrays female characters that would be shallowly stereotyped on other networks/shows/movies–and books, I suppose.
And personally, I think most of the sex is sexy and I enjoyed it. I liked least what a lot of people here liked best–Dany and Drogo. I find that one to do the least in terms of defying stereotypes. But it still beats most other t.v. with a stick.
I’m torn on this show for many of the same reasons as you. There are a lot of areas it can be improved in… race, gender, queerness. It’s just so damn captivating, though, and the acting is magnificent. I can’t stop watching. I just hope it shapes up in future seasons!
Alright, I have a number of thoughts on this subject. First, I hadn’t started to read the books prior to watching the first season and I’m actively anticipating the second. The series has gotten me to read the books, and I’ve not been disappointed in either; but my point here is that my input is based initially on someone having only viewed the show.
I’ll start with the whores as Malinda did. It is a fact of life that prostitutes have existed since the beginning of civilization and are, quite literally one of the oldest professions. Take into account that fantasy (regardless its perspective) is based on history and you’re going to have whore in some manner in MOST fantasy genre related material. I say most because Young Adult reading and younger is about the only examples of fantasy I can think of where it doesnt exist and certainly in Hollywood there is going to be some example of it, even if it’s not obvious.
Thought I can conceed that in the current state of entertainment, it’s expected that shows like GoT (And it’s predecessors like the Tudors, Rome, etc) are going to show ample nudity, and most of it female, they also do a rather good balance of showing the male persuasion as well. (The afore mentioned punishment of the mane running behind Dany’s horse, Theon’s full frontal after talking to Ros (in which she definetly has the upper hand, literally) Ned getting out of bed when the Maester comes to deliver word that a raven has appeared. Hodor coming out of the spring to check on Bran when Osha is talking to him in the weirwood). To state that this show is particularly focused on it I dont feel is accurate, as the balance it out, and in all honesty the -time period- being portrayed is utterly different then our own rather restricted Americanized mentality. The amount of skin shown wouldn’t be an issue overseas, for instance.
Secondly – the fake lesbianism. Alright I can definetly give you some of that. Though I think the view is rather limited. Firstly, the scene with Ros and Petyr in the whorehouse was never in the books I discovered BUT in the show I can clearly see what it was meant to do. Yes, there was pandering with the display BUT if you were able to look past the girls to listen to what Petyr was saying, the scene as a whole was him describing himself. I barely paid attention to the girls in lieu of his monologue about humanity (in this show) and his place within it. The display of being false in order to get by, to make something of oneself and overcome humiliation, etc. He was comparing himself to the show that the whores are expected to give to their clients.
For Dany, yes I can certainly see and agree to where she was raped in the perspective of the show (that was handled differently in the books and I’m not sure if it was just on the cutting room floor for sake of time in the show) HOWEVER, here is a young girl who has obviously been extremely sheltered growing up. Indeed, you know without really saying if that Viserys is all she’s really known to learn from and lords know what he’s taught her. For her to ask someone, anyone whom she trusts to show her the proverbial ropes does indeed make sense. She can’t talk to Drogo yet due to the language barrier still, but she can talk with her handmaiden.
I feel, and have from the beginning without reading hte books that the show has a wide range of women to look at and discuss. Yes, you have the ‘weak’ female stereotypes (Sansa comes to mind, but as also pointed out, she’s a romantic who is having her ideals and assumptions stripped away from her) but everyone of them has complexity. Daenarys growth from sheltered, wide-eyed waif to the Mother of Dragons, Sansa and her romanticism, Cersei having a strong core but unraveling as the show progresses, Catelyn having disdain for her husbands bastard but being the true Mother Wolf to her children, Arya bucking the traditional roles that her sex is expected to adhere to and her father supporting them, etc, even.
Regarding color – though there was a lack of it in the show, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist or wont. Based on the postings, the show is adding quite a bit in Season 2, and has even changed the ethnicity of some characters to include those of others. The Dothraki I felt were portrayed as a very open, strong warrior race. They were the contrast to the covered up, closed, scheming citizens of Westeros.
Ultimately I can conceed that there is some things done for the sake of ratings, but GRRM is an executive producer on the show and has had quite a bit of input directly into it’s creation and filming. Over all I feel that the show displays a wide range of issues, and based on the world, it’s civilizations and the ways they are show, it does it quite well. That coupled with the storytelling is what makes it compelling.
I have to admit that I really disliked the portrayal of Brienne in the books. The whole “she was so ugly she had to be a jock” thing did not sit well with me, because I remember those days, and they weren’t pretty. And, again, it’s not a medieval sensibility.
Niki- please see Sarah Rees Brennan’s comment below. Not only is she another excellent author, but her comments and opinions mirror my own. I wasn’t trying to justify anything, I was trying to state what actually happened in the wedding scene that was not accurately described by you.
Stephanie, thanks for your comments so far but please read my “Edited 9/9/11 to add” note above at the bottom of the post. This part of the discussion is over.
Thanks, Kate and Sarah, for your comments so far! I appreciate the desire to discuss the books but let’s stay on the topic of the TV series.
(Please read my “Edited 9/9/11 to add” note above at the end of the post.)
Whoops. Sorry!
Just so there is no confusion, I hope people realize there are two Stephanies commenting on this thread, and I’m not the other one
I’m sorry I didn’t mean to offend you with my comments
Sorry Malinda, I will be good!
Sarah, do you want to sit in the time out corner over here with me? I have cookies.
I’m with Kate Elliott on the portrayal of sex and gender. It feels like the 70s. Casual female nudity vs. the very, very careful male nudity (no alpha men shown without their clothes), that is: men = subject, women = object. Mostly the naked people are just a way to distract the viewer’s left brain from all the boring infodump.
I’m imagining all the young men coming of age with this TV, thinking that sex involves doing a long, boring data download about their ancestry…
But I’ll still watch season two
Wow! Lots of comments.
Though I haven’t read the books or watched the TV series, I hate that there are many books and TV shows with gay guys in a relationship where it’s not the center of the book (being open or not about it), and then it’s pretty rare for a book/TV show to have a lesbian relationship that isn’t problematic.
So anyway. That’s the extent of my comment.
I’m sure. LOL!
No problem, thanks!
I would hate to read the forcibly-politically-correct, de-fanged version of Martin’s vision that you seem to be asking for…
It isn’t as though Martin is presenting some warped alternate reality conjured from his own depraved male fantasies. Fantasy elements notwithstanding, the world Martin presents is very much the way our own world used to be.
Moreover, his plot and characters are thought provoking and empathic (no less so in the televised version). Difficult topics are dealt with seriously, and unapologetically. This is as it should be.
It serves nobody to pretend that whoring, patriarchy, exploitation of women, barbarians, rape, etc. never existed, by whitewashing all the scripts that make it onto our televisions until every political faction has been satisfied.
For that matter, why should Martin have to add lesbian characters, just to prove to lesbian viewers that female homosexuality exists in his world? To me, obviously gay characters such as Renly made rather clear the existence and status of homosexuality in this world… and although you don’t seem to find them ‘realistic’ enough for your tastes, I have always considered characters like Daenerys’ maid Irri to be rather clearly lesbian. Being slaves in a male-dominated barbarian society may require them to behave bisexually, but it seems rather clear (more-so in the books, perhaps) that their feelings of love and affection are largely reserved for other women, and that they overwhelmingly prefer the companionship of women over men. Calling those feelings ‘fake’ or insufficient and requiring that obvious ‘modern’ lesbian characters be shoehorned into the story seems absurd to me.
Hi Malinda! First off I just wanted to let you know that I JUST picked up Ash yesterday. I came across it after literally wandering around a bookstore for several hours and coming up with NADA! I only just started reading it, but am so so excited for 2 reasons: 1). it is a retelling of Cinderella and I have read pretty much every Cinderella retelling there is! and 2). It has a lesbian twist to it, which is a HUGE step for Young Adult literature. So all of this caused me to jump about and shout ecstatic noises of elation, whilst my poor girlfriend, Colleen, was shaking her head laughing. So thank you for writing this book! I am a happy lady
Now…on to the Game of Thrones. Personally I have read every book in this series and while I will not spoil it for you, I can say that there will NOT be much lesbian action in it at all. BUT you also have to understand Malinda, that this story takes place in a Medieval world where women do not have a voice, or rights. The men in this time truly believe that their women are purely to be used for breeding and gaining power. Not exactly a pretty reality, but that’s just how Medieval times go, That’s why George R. R. Martin put Danaerys and Arya into the story. As you watch the series and read the stories, you will come to understand that the women are his favorite characters, More and more of them will be introduced and you will see that he personally is rooting for Danaerys more so than lets say Jaimie Lannister. Also, you really should read the initial sex scene between Khal Drogo and Danaerys. It is depicted much much differently in the book. As for Doreah teaching Danaerys…Doreah was raised as a sex slave and is very much in lust with the beautiful foreign woman that is Danaerys Targaryen. I don’t think it was fake lesbianism as much as it was Doreah (trained in the ways of the 7 sighs) trying to teach a young innocent naive girl of 16 how to pleasure a man. In regards to all the nudity…there is so so much power in a woman’s soft beautiful naked form. Just because a woman is naked does not mean that it has to be demeaning. You will learn that in the cities across the sea from Westeros, nudity amongst women denotes power and respect. Just be patient with the series, read the books, pay close attention to the women of this story, and give George R, R, Martin the benefit of the doubt. 
Liv, I think you’ve misunderstood the point of my critique. It’s not to demand that Martin de-fang his books or make them politically correct, it’s to comment on the representation of women shown on-screen in the HBO series.
Mary, thank you for buying Ash! I hope you enjoy it.
Thanks also for your comment, but please remember we’re discussing the TV series, not the books.